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    Challenge session 1: 20km TT

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    Ryan T

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Ryan T on Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:05 am

    Paul,

    Thanks for the feedback, I was definitely going to easy on that basis because my avg HR for the 35km bike at Byron Bay was 162. I just couldnt seem to get my HR up in this TT though and Im not sure if the following may be factors-

    I only had a glass of cordial before the TT and didnt realise it was so far away so in effect did a 16km warm up before my TT. Would fatigue/carb depletion be a fatcor in not being able to get HR up?

    I think the 22 and 25 min were when i tried to keep same pace up the rise/hill without changing gearing..

    15min was when i started having issues and i stopped pedalling for a while to adjust shorts/etc..

    According to my bike computer avg cadence was 84 which i guess is meaningless without being able to see where it fluctated etc.

    I might launch into some of those intervals on the trainer as they meet my criteria for being time efficient, plus I dont use the trainer anywhere near enough.I am heading off overseas for a few weeks so will try and run at least 5 days a week for 30 mins as prescribed by you earlier.

    cheers for your help

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    Post by Guest on Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:02 am



    Last edited by Dave C on Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Paul F on Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:59 am

    G’day Dave,
    I’ll take a shot.
    You have definitely taken it out WAY too hard. That’s called setting yourself up for a suffer fest LOL. In the first 2-3min you weren’t even below 42kph yet your av sp for the entire TT was 37.5kph. You also reached your av hr for the entire test within the first minute. That would indicate your watts/power on the bike would have been off the screen. Then you can see a decline in speed and HR as you search for your correct RPE, this would then mean you have had to spend a bit of time below your RPE in order to get settled, which is reached at about the 5minute. But that is a whole 5minutes of overcooking and in fact probably underperforming as you try to bring things in line.

    Between about the 12-20minute this is where you are IN the zone. That is your RPE, speed and HR are aligned and you’re at your correct level of effort for a 20km TT. This should of remained stable for the rest of the TT, however, that blow up at the start is catching up with you and you can see from about 23minutes onwards lactic acid and fatigue are kicking in, because of the effort at the start being too high. What should be happening is a steady rise in HR with a level speed profile. Have a look at the low point s in speed from about 22 minutes, they range from 33.6kph and drop to 32.8kph. , but your HR is rising. This is decoupling and my guess would be that it would be greater than 5%, which makes it for sub optimal execution. If it is under 5% then you have executed the TT well. Between 0-5% wouldn’t even be noticeable to the naked eyed, maybe just. So that just brings me back to the start of the TT. In the first 10km, apart from those big three dips (where your trying to get back down to the right effort), all your other dips are all over 34kph, some close to 36kph, which makes it about 2-3kph more than the dips second half of your TT. That is too much. It would be interesting to see what each 5km split in terms of av sp and av hr was??


    Your highest HR was achieved at the 2.5 minute mark. That’s pretty hardcore and I’m surprised you stuck out this 20km as well as you did, most people would blow and slow down a lot more than what you did. That takes mental strength which then suggests this would be one of your strengths, on the downside controlling your mental arousal is probably your weakness and cost you considerable time in this TT. With the right pacing within the first 5km there is no reason you couldn’t shave at least another 60-90sec off that time without any gain in fitness.


    Your cadence doesn’t look too bad. Looking at your profile if your legs are as big as those arms then you might just be better suited to the low cadence riding. I train with a Dutch X-pro here and he is 90kg at 5’10” and he can just power those bigger gears, spinning doesn’t work for him.
    You would be prime candidate for a powermeter, these are great devices for people with pacing issues and mental arousal concerns.
    In terms of training negative splitting all of your intervals would be my recommendation for you. You could still follow those intervals I posted earlier but you would focus on building through each interval, not the actual intervals but getting faster and faster between interval 1 then 2 and 3 etc. If you can’t then start easier until you can negative split say 1-3 and then 4-6 in the 6 x 4min set. Over time you’ll then learn to nail your execution.

    Hope it helps

    fluro

    Smile


    Last edited by Paul F on Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Paul F on Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:59 am

    Double post
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Paul F on Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:10 am

    Dave C wrote:Daves 20k TT

    Daveone lap effort

    Hi Paul,

    Have a crack at this one!

    Some small points.
    no where near fit!
    bit of wind and rain.
    have some hammy issues which raised their head.
    plus the normal back and neck problems
    started too hard, slowed came back, slowed again.
    on TT bike with aero helmet
    Always have problems getting HR up on the bike.
    Always push too hard a gear eg low cadence.

    Have added a one lap effort i did in the warmup. standing start flat out
    Forget the start bit just look at it based on distance.

    Love to hear your comments

    Can you send through a pic of your TT setup, we can have a look, Plaz in particular is great at critiquing someones setup. Most of those issues seem like they would relate to how you have fitted yourself on the bike.

    For example
    Lower back = seat too far back, due to tribars being put on a road bike (73 degree)
    Hammies = seat not forward enough, or too low, thus the quads don't get to do the work. When you seat is low and back this can add addition contractions to your hammies thus causing them to tighten up. Sit on a chair and feel you hammies, notice how shortened they are even though they are relaxed?? The straight your leg out and feel what happens to your hammies behind the knee and just above. If you ride with shortened hammies at high intensities they'll cause you trouble.
    Neck = too low at the front, resting on muscles as opposed to skeletal

    Getting HR up is not the problem, you hit your max in 2.5min. When you train alot and become really fit and efficient your HR can show signs of lag.

    Guest
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Guest on Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:42 am



    Last edited by Dave C on Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total

    Dave B

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Dave B on Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:00 am

    Dave B 20 k TT

    1st TT down !!
    was a bit cold and made a bit of an error by wearing 3 layers (roasted Dingo) by 9km was a bit toasty warm Razz

    just tried to execute a controlled 20km and not die in the arse !! was seated and aero for whole ride..2 gears used.
    next 1 will be with some aggression and will attempt to work the 2 rises and maintain speed a bit better.

    cadence sensor not synched to replacement garmin but would be close to 90-92 average.

    had the track to myself and an eery low fog for company Cool

    disc and wanker helmet in use...bike made of used aluminium cans !!
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Paul F on Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:12 am

    G’day Dave B,

    Not too much to offer up here. This to me is a well executed TT. Your HR profile is great it slows a that you hit your correct effort within 2minutes of starting and your speed profile shows you didn’t overcook yourself to reach that point early in the TT. Your HR profile shows the smallest in inclines throughout the whole test, which is perfect. There is perhaps on point at the 8 minute mark where it looks like you were edging into the redzone (173ish) and you decided to easy it off back down to 165-166bpm. Apart from that you have the most consistent rise in HR which indicates a really well calibrated RPE. Your av hr is 167 and your max hr is 174bpm, that is a difference on 7bpm which to me is perfect. This would indicate you have ridden this TT at FT +5% approximately. Your max hr is also reached in the last km and not anywhere else in the test ,except for the 173bpm you hit at the 8min mark.
    Look at your speed profile I would call it completely horizontal from about the 10 minute mark inwards. Comparing your HR profile and your speed profile this would put your decoupling at under 5%. That indicates a really well paced TT.
    I would say you have executed your TT in a similar fashion to mine which means where do you do from here.
    I would recommend a strength focus, lot’s of Big gear work, slow tension efforts to build strength in bigger gears that would eventually allow you TT in a bigger gear with more power.
    I’m right in the middle of a strength focus now, so I do two focus sessions PW. Lots of climbing, all seated, aiming for a cadence of around 55-65bpm, keep my efforts around zone 3. You want it to be a muscular overload and not a cardio overload when you building strength. I would recommend doing big long climbs with a golden rule of NOT standing up on the weekends and then multiple repeats, ie 16-20 climbs all seated over short climbs (ie 200-2km).


    That’s what we have started doing and already we are seeing the results after just 2-3 weeks. You notice on the flats when you really start driving.

    Once we finish the strength focus then we’ll move onto the power phase which will be a short 4 week block leading into a few races we are targeting.


    It looks like a few of you guys are doing the TT on the same course, you should all think about getting together and upping the ante. Send each person off according to their previous time and handicap it that way. That alone will give all of you another PB. LOL

    Hope it helps
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    goughy

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by goughy on Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:26 am

    Hi Paul,

    Just a little aside, trying out what you were telling me regarding my cadence. I had 3 single lap efforts on the same course on Sunday (still no hrm, actually turned up today, the first two I tried to keep my cadence higher and the last one I rode how and in the type of gearing I usually do, kind of as a control lap I guess. Here's the link. I had a short rest between each lap. Got the splits this time.
    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/36001935
    Would loved to have had the hr data to compare the efforts. But I'm wondering in the terms of cadence are those first two what you were talking about, and the last effort the 'wrong' way?

    Also, I meant to ask but what is RPE? You mentioned it when analysing mine but I dont' know what that is.

    Mates are all away this weekend so I'm hoping to have another run at it with the different cadence profile.

    racs

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by racs on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:35 am

    I might try and smash one of these out on Goughy's course latter in the week
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    goughy

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by goughy on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:28 pm

    Oh shit!
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    Dave Tyno

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Dave Tyno on Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:23 pm

    goughy wrote:

    Also, I meant to ask but what is RPE? You mentioned it when analysing mine but I dont' know what that is.

    http://www.gottagetfit.com.au/blog/2008/05/15/measuring-exercise-intensity-rating-of-perceived-exertion/
    A basic rundown.

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Guest on Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:46 am

    goughy wrote:Hi Paul,

    Just a little aside, trying out what you were telling me regarding my cadence. I had 3 single lap efforts on the same course on Sunday (still no hrm, actually turned up today, the first two I tried to keep my cadence higher and the last one I rode how and in the type of gearing I usually do, kind of as a control lap I guess. Here's the link. I had a short rest between each lap. Got the splits this time.
    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/36001935
    Would loved to have had the hr data to compare the efforts. But I'm wondering in the terms of cadence are those first two what you were talking about, and the last effort the 'wrong' way?

    Also, I meant to ask but what is RPE? You mentioned it when analysing mine but I dont' know what that is.

    Mates are all away this weekend so I'm hoping to have another run at it with the different cadence profile.

    I think you need to change your lap to a short version with less turns and elevation change for a more repeatable reference.
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    goughy

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by goughy on Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:07 am

    Not sure what you mean Dave? If you mean find a better place to do a TT from, there really isn't in our town. This spot is kind of the designated cycling lap spot in town.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Guest on Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:07 pm

    if you use the Nardoo,Charaker,West and Volker sts as a 2.59k lap, you can minimise the number of corner, and there for the number of time you stop pedalling. Also there is less elevation change (i.e. flatter) so less changing gear and cadence change so over all a more consistent effort.

    This should yeld you a better avg spd and a more repeatable base to work from.

    hopefully


    Please disregard if you think I'm fill of $hit!! jocolor

    Dave B

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Dave B on Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:32 am

    Dave C

    ok I will disregard !! tongue
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Paul F on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:59 am

    goughy wrote:Hi Paul,

    Just a little aside, trying out what you were telling me regarding my cadence. I had 3 single lap efforts on the same course on Sunday (still no hrm, actually turned up today, the first two I tried to keep my cadence higher and the last one I rode how and in the type of gearing I usually do, kind of as a control lap I guess. Here's the link. I had a short rest between each lap. Got the splits this time.
    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/36001935
    Would loved to have had the hr data to compare the efforts. But I'm wondering in the terms of cadence are those first two what you were talking about, and the last effort the 'wrong' way?

    Also, I meant to ask but what is RPE? You mentioned it when analysing mine but I dont' know what that is.

    Mates are all away this weekend so I'm hoping to have another run at it with the different cadence profile.

    I agree with what the others are saying.

    Ideally the perfect course would be 10km out and 10km back, so that if it is windy it will balance out your result.

    With you course your doing, multiple 1km laps with sharp corners, it's going to be difficult to track your sustainable power, and that is what you should be tsargeting as that is how you would race in a tri.

    The course your doing would be great for crit racing. What you need to eliminate is the constant changes in power, which would be very up and down due to the course your on.

    When you do these sorts of test you looking at keeping as many things as you can constant, for example you should only use 1-2 gears, a very small cadence range and your speed shouldn't vary too much. Thee are critical for people who don't have a power meter. That way you can assess your speed quite accurately and track your progress quite accurately. If you go back to Camerons TT, you'll see what I mean, have a look at how even his power profile is but how erratic is speed profile is. On a 10km out and back course, his speed profile would look much similar to his power profile.

    Does that make sense?


    I'm also a victim of this with the course I did my 20km on, it was too technincal for 1/2 a lap and that makes it a little less effective in terms of accurately tracking progress and analysing the results. I don't have achoice though as it's part of the ATTA time trial series.

    In saying all of that, once you start repeating your tests on the same course every 6-8 weeks you'll find very clear patterns developing and this will give you great direction in terms of how to plan your next training block.

    fluro
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    Glenn C

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Glenn C on Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:27 pm

    FYI Studies have shown that an out and back course with a headwind one way and tailwind the other does not work out the same as one without wind. Its slower because you end up spending more time going at a slower speed for the same distance than you do at the faster speed.
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Paul F on Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:32 pm

    That true, but it's still probably better than doing a straight 20km TT in on direction.

    I'm wondering if you knew the wind speed if that could then be used to compare the difference between your headiwnd section and then your tailwind section to assess aero position, etc.

    I'm not sure why but a mate of mine used to always blitz me into a headwind but I would be all of him on the return trip with the tailwind, thought??

    fluro
    P.S I was set up at the time on a roadie with TT bars and a bad position, could get forward at all.
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    Alex R
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Alex R on Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:10 pm

    Fluro, power..... Wink
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    goughy

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by goughy on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:28 am

    Dave C wrote:if you use the Nardoo,Charaker,West and Volker sts as a 2.59k lap, you can minimise the number of corner, and there for the number of time you stop pedalling. Also there is less elevation change (i.e. flatter) so less changing gear and cadence change so over all a more consistent effort.

    This should yeld you a better avg spd and a more repeatable base to work from.

    hopefully


    Please disregard if you think I'm fill of $hit!! jocolor

    Think I get what yo all mean. Basically you want to minimise any factors which will affect your ability to just ride hard. So corners, hills, whatever and try and keep the course as simple as you can, regardless of how short the course may end up?

    Dave, I'll give this a try next time. Makes no difference to me what the course is, as long as it works. It will remove a give way corner and a sharp down the sharp uphill.
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Paul F on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:05 am

    goughy wrote:
    Dave C wrote:if you use the Nardoo,Charaker,West and Volker sts as a 2.59k lap, you can minimise the number of corner, and there for the number of time you stop pedalling. Also there is less elevation change (i.e. flatter) so less changing gear and cadence change so over all a more consistent effort.

    This should yeld you a better avg spd and a more repeatable base to work from.

    hopefully


    Please disregard if you think I'm fill of $hit!! jocolor

    Think I get what yo all mean. Basically you want to minimise any factors which will affect your ability to just ride hard. So corners, hills, whatever and try and keep the course as simple as you can, regardless of how short the course may end up?

    Dave, I'll give this a try next time. Makes no difference to me what the course is, as long as it works. It will remove a give way corner and a sharp down the sharp uphill.

    Exactly!!!!

    When we train we need to really focus on the demands of the event and eliminate variables that won't effect us on the day.

    For example, you wouldn't do all your training in the hills if your training to race over a flat course.

    Likewise your 1km loop. If you keep training and testing yourself on that loop, then guess what, you'll improve, get better at corner, accelerating, changing gears etc but you'll wonder why you can't hold your sustainable power (in 1-2 or gears with about 2-3kph difference in pace) in a triathlon on a flat out and back 10km course. You haven't eliminated enough variable to meet the demands of the event.

    We can't eliminate all the variables, everytime but we can improve our specificity in training, by

    1. Training over distances we intend on racing
    2. Training at intensities we intend on racing at
    3. Training over terrains and environmental conditions that are similar to race day
    4. Practice in training our race day plans (eg transitions, bricks, nutrition plan, race kits, etc)

    If we don't eliminate the variables in training it makes it harder to take control of the constants in races. This why people blow up on the run because they haven't really taken control of their pacing in training to setup realistic race day goals, which consequently leads to poor execution.

    This why tools like HR monitors, powermeters, well calibrated RPE's, GPS devices, and regular testing such as these 20km TT can build up a race day plan that becomes highly achievable.

    Just look at how varied our results were in this one test between all of us and if we stick together do this test every 6 weeks, talk about our execution, refine our training, you can be assured in 6 months we'll all be executing this 20km TT much better, resulting in PB's accross the board.

    None us will even need to train more, just smarter, but the upside is, the results become evident quickly and then it becomes very motivating to train consistently and more.

    It's now the offseason here in Freo and the summer warriors are dropping off like lfies. Our group ride has gone from being 20+ guys and we are now down to about 6-8 guys. These just so happen to be the fastest guys too. But what we happens effectively now is that with only 6-8 of us turning up every week, the time we get to spend out the front pushing the pace has quadripled. Therefore the quality of our training is really improving, then the summer warriors wonder why they feel so out of shape come next summer. They actually, aren't slower, we have just gotten fitter. In all honesty, I find the best time to train is over winter, it's the best time to take control of those variables and really refine your training. Much harder to do in summer with alot more people around, cars out and about, races to do etc.

    It sounds weird but it's so much easier to train when occassionally your mates sleep in. It gives you the pyschological edge and improves the quality of that session, hah hah.



    fluro
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    Blair V

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Blair V on Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:00 am

    I headed to Murrarie to have a go at a 20km TT this arvo but aborted it half way because of a strong headwind that seemed to get stronger and all the bloody morons spreading themselves across the track as they dawdled around with the dogs, kids, scooters, tricycles and go karts

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/36819878
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    Cameron G

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by Cameron G on Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:57 pm

    Damn Blair, you can really see the head wind effect there. Oh well lets hope the wind dies soon
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    David B

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

    Post by David B on Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:23 pm

    Here's something to think about if you're plodding away worrying about slow training pace during winter (not a concern for those of you far enough north that winter is >15deg, but it was -2* here + wind chill the other morning).

    Roto 1 is the TT I did the other day with weather conditions entered from wunderground
    Roto 2 shows the difference in pace from using full noise kit and having summer conditions


    Haven't factored for having heavier clothing on.
    Might be interesting to those of you not using power.
    And for those who love to doubt science - these models are generally accurate to within a few seconds - the theoretical gains from different equipment have been observed in practice many times.

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    Re: Challenge session 1: 20km TT

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