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    HR - is this normal?

    MickyC
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    HR - is this normal? Empty HR - is this normal?

    Post by MickyC on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:19 am

    Noosa was my 1st Olympic distance tri, having done about 3 or 4 sprint races before. Had a fantastic time up there, hanging out with friends and relaxing, looking forward to doing more blah blah blah...

    Training in the lead up was a bit up and down, did some sessions that seemed pretty good, with consistency being the real problem.

    Swimming is my weakness, cycling I find the most fun and running is, well running…

    I struggled through the swim, but managed to swim it a bit faster than I thought – 29:36min. I was pretty tired coming out of the water, to the point where I walked all the way to my bike.

    I wore my Garmin for the ride and run but I didn’t have it set to display HR (I thought I did but it seemed to show everything but).

    I felt like I took it pretty easy on the bike, not really knowing how running 10km afterwards would be. Never felt out of breath although I could feel a bit of tiredness in my legs on the way back into town. Did a 1:14:23 – ave HR 163 (max 174), both of which were fairly high for me while riding.

    On the run I felt absolutely terrible… Again never out of breath, but just couldn’t get my legs to go faster. Possibly due to the breathing being under control, I felt like my HR wasn’t too high. In actual fact, after downloading the run data, my HR was really high for me despite a slow pace – 48:48 min (04:50min/km) – Ave HR 175 (max 189).

    Data can be seen here.

    Below are a few examples of my runs in the lead up to the event (last few weeks). My HR is generally a lot lower, and my pace higher despite these being slowish runs.

    8.6km 40:31 min 04:42 min/km Ave HR 152 Max HR 171
    8.5km 39:09 min 04:36 min/km Ave HR 150 Max HR 166

    I’d love to hear you opinions on why my HR was so high during the run leg. Perhaps this is just the norm. Could it be put down to an accumulation of fatigue from the swim and ride? I was under the impression that when you start to get weary if can be difficult to elevate your HR?

    Sorry about all the questions - but it feels a bit 'safter' asking on this forum

    MC
    Alex R
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    Post by Alex R on Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:03 am

    Goood topic and one that I know interests me quite a bit. Also this one alllows the 'I did this and that happened' type responses that I am encouraging on this forum. It is always easy to say that some study says something or other but real world examples are much easier to understand I think.

    In my case, I did a run very often at pretty much exactly the same heart rate. In the end, I was running 17.2km in 1:18 give or take a couple of seconds at 151 BPM average. Alll i would do was to keep the rate between 150 and 155. This gave me a 4:30ish min/km pace.

    The last Half IM I did, I ran the first 10km in around 47 minutes paying very little attention to my heart rate. At this point, I accidentally threw my gells into a bin fulll of water(don't ask) so started to worry about popping. I started to watch my heart rate and saw it was in the late 160s. I stilll felt fine but worried myself to the point that I walked until I got it back down into the 140s then jogged until it came back to my 150-155 bracket. This was painfullly slow stilll and I ended up 'running' the 11km in 1:15 or something. It was hot as hell and I was not drinking anywhere near enough. I should have throwwn my HRM into the water filled bin instead.

    Things that willl have influence on your HR are hydration, ambient and core temperature among others. I wasn't at Noosa but I heard it rained. This means that the humidity was way high and as a result your hydration could have been off. Couple that with the wet suit swim and standinng around all morning and things are getting different to how your body would be during your two 8.6km benchmark runs.
    MickyC
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    Post by MickyC on Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:14 am

    Alex,

    thanks for the response. Re hydration/fuelling:

    I was pretty well hydrated on the morning of the event. Min standing around beforehand due to accommodation 100m from transition (not having to queue for a port-a-loo = gold!)

    Made the rookie mistake of not leaving any nutrition in transition, bar a bidon of Gatorade. Stuck a pack of sports beans in my tri suite underneath the wetty. Turns out the packet wasn’t waterproof so I was unable to get any of the gooey beanie stuff out so just the Gatorade for the remainder of the ride which I drank all off.

    Tried the endura at the first aid station but it nearly made me spew so just stuck to water for the rest of the way, although guts weren’t feeling that great so I didn’t have too much.

    You’re right it was pretty humid although not that warm.

    Maybe it was the sum total of above that caused the ticker to get so excited.

    Ended up being very hydrated by about 8pm, although enough Coronas will do that to you drunken
    Dave Tyno
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    Post by Dave Tyno on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:26 am

    Interesting timing with this topic.
    I went for a run this morning where it was very muggy.
    From the outset my HR was about 5 BPM higher than usual - 158 ish instead of 153 ish.
    I ended up cutting the run short when my HR hit 171 on a flat stretch of road at barely above walking pace.
    Walked for a while, still at 135- 138 BPM, then got a cold drink from the convenience store and walked the rest of the way home. When I walked out of the shop HR was still 134.
    By the time I was halfway through the drink, my HR was around 125 and I was walking quicker than I was when it was 135.
    Alex R
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    Post by Alex R on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:49 am

    Core temp is a huge one apparently. Al Pitman was telling me about the L3 coaching thing he went to and they were telling them about how 200ml of water straight out of the swim increased performance by some certain amount across the rest of the event including the run. I don't recall the figures but it was enough to pay attention to.
    Campbell M
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    Post by Campbell M on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:51 am

    Don't forget that a race is called race because it's not training!! Sounds obvious, but a race presents a different scenario and conditions to deal with.

    In each race one you do your body will respond in a different way, which may / may not bear any great or close relationship to what you've experienced in training.

    So when people talk about being "race fit" or an experienced "racer" it's because their body has become accustomed to the some of the different demands a race places on them, and they, in turn, have enough experience to know how to respond to those scenarios.

    The more races you do, the better you become at performing in those conditions, and the more practised you become at knowing *how* to perform, ie, to get the most from your body when it most counts.

    A better racer will often beat a better athlete because they know how to manage their performance consistent with what their training form indicates.

    However in saying this I might be completely off track with what you experienced at Noosa...but would also suggest that it's possible you're just unfamiliar with racing.
    Paul F
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    Post by Paul F on Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:11 am

    G’day Mick,
    Here are some things to think about.

    “Noosa was my 1st Olympic distance tri, having done about 3 or 4 sprint races before. Had a fantastic time up there, hanging out with friends and relaxing, looking forward to doing more blah blah blah...

    Training in the lead up was a bit up and down, did some sessions that seemed pretty good, with consistency being the real problem.”

    Sounds like an inconsistent prep may have effected your goals for the race thus making you feel “terrible on the run”. However, don’t be too disappointed as it was your first OLY and it is always a great achievement stepping up to a new distance.

    “Swimming is my weakness, cycling I find the most fun and running is, well running…

    I struggled through the swim, but managed to swim it a bit faster than I thought – 29:36min. I was pretty tired coming out of the water, to the point where I walked all the way to my bike.”
    How well did your address your swimming weakness in training? You mention that you were tired getting out of the water, that there, is setting you up for a harder slog on the bike and run.
    If swimming is your weakness and you haven’t addressed that weakness in training then you would be better off swimming conservatively in order to race to your strengths.


    “I wore my Garmin for the ride and run but I didn’t have it set to display HR (I thought I did but it seemed to show everything but).”This is a good idea as too many variables will effect HR on race day that can’t be replicated well in training. Racing to a plan based on effort is better. That effort is built around developing a race plan in training, developing race pace efforts over various distances that will closely meet the demands of the event.

    “I felt like I took it pretty easy on the bike, not really knowing how running 10km afterwards would be. Never felt out of breath although I could feel a bit of tiredness in my legs on the way back into town. Did a 1:14:23 – ave HR 163 (max 174), both of which were fairly high for me while riding.”This sounds like you have executed the bike portion quite well. The HR could be higher because of things just as
    1. Swimming to hard
    2. Fight or flight principle
    3. Stress
    4. Heat
    5. Mental arousal
    6. Dehydration
    7. Lack of specificity in training. That is, not spending enough time adapting the body to the demands of the event

    “On the run I felt absolutely terrible… Again never out of breath, but just couldn’t get my legs to go faster. Possibly due to the breathing being under control, I felt like my HR wasn’t too high. In actual fact, after downloading the run data, my HR was really high for me despite a slow pace – 48:48 min (04:50min/km) – Ave HR 175 (max 189).”I’m not sure what you mean by “breath being under control”?
    Did you still feel like you had energy?
    Was the breathing hard, like you were cramping up in the chest? Sometimes this occurs when you consume fluids in the TT position and then you try to stand up and run, you cramp in the chest, because the fluids haven’t gone down properly.
    Did you feel thirsty on the run?
    Were you still sweating a lot on the run?
    Did you do any brick session in training?
    Has this feeling every been replicated in training?

    Data can be seen here.

    Below are a few examples of my runs in the lead up to the event (last few weeks). My HR is generally a lot lower, and my pace higher despite these being slowish runs.

    8.6km 40:31 min 04:42 min/km Ave HR 152 Max HR 171
    8.5km 39:09 min 04:36 min/km Ave HR 150 Max HR 166

    I’d love to hear you opinions on why my HR was so high during the run leg.

    What are your threshold HR’s on the run (av hr for 10km run max effort) and your threshold HR on the bike (40km TT av hr max effort). Can’t really conclude much from those training runs unless we know how hard they are as a % of FT



    “Perhaps this is just the norm. Could it be put down to an accumulation of fatigue from the swim and ride? I was under the impression that when you start to get weary if can be difficult to elevate your HR?”It could be the normal, but I think if we knew your threshold HR’s you might find you were just racing to your current abilities.
    I think the swim has definitely impact on your bike and run and maybe looking back through some of your key sessions in the lead up to this race may help you put together a plan for your next OLY.
    Top effort on your first OLY.
    fluro
    Paul F
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    Post by Paul F on Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:18 am

    "Core temp is a huge one apparently. Al Pitman was telling me about the L3 coaching thing he went to and they were telling them about how 200ml of water straight out of the swim increased performance by some certain amount across the rest of the event including the run. I don't recall the figures but it was enough to pay attention to."

    Agreed, when I was studying at JCU I volunteered to be a guinea pig for quite a few lab tests for the PHD students. The core temp is a biggy along with dehydration and the effect it has on blood volume.

    fluro
    MickyC
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    Post by MickyC on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:28 am

    Paul F wrote:Sounds like an inconsistent prep may have effected your goals for the race thus making you feel “terrible on the run”. However, don’t be too disappointed as it was your first OLY and it is always a great achievement stepping up to a new distance.

    I tend to agree - although in my case I'm thinking that my lack of specific goals, other than purely getting to the finish line, probably contributed to my training inconsistencies. By that I mean I wasn't really after a good/fast time so I was a bit guilty of just winging it a bit on training. This is definitely something that I will address in future.


    Paul F wrote:How well did your address your swimming weakness in training? You mention that you were tired getting out of the water, that there, is setting you up for a harder slog on the bike and run.
    If swimming is your weakness and you haven’t addressed that weakness in training then you would be better off swimming conservatively in order to race to your strengths.

    I probably spent more time on my swimming, as a total of my training volume, than I did on the other legs. I’m pretty happy with how far it has improved (from terrible to not so terrible) but it does have a long way to go. Your point of swimming conservatively sounds like a good idea. I may have to do some swim-run sessions to see what sort of effect a conservative swim has on the run.

    Paul F wrote:I’m not sure what you mean by “breath being under control”?
    Did you still feel like you had energy?
    Was the breathing hard, like you were cramping up in the chest? Sometimes this occurs when you consume fluids in the TT position and then you try to stand up and run, you cramp in the chest, because the fluids haven’t gone down properly.
    Did you feel thirsty on the run?
    Were you still sweating a lot on the run?
    Did you do any brick session in training?
    Has this feeling every been replicated in training?

    By breath being under control I mean that my respitory rate wasn’t very high, so I wasn’t huffing and puffing.
    No cramps in the chest
    Didn’t feel particularly thirsty, to the point where I skipped a couple of dink stations.
    It was raining quite hard at times during the run so I couldn’t really tell if I was sweating overly or not.
    Yes I did a couple of brick session, legs felt heavy, ran a bit slower for the 1st km but otherwise fine.
    Now that I think about it, I did feel like I was lacking in energy.

    Paul F wrote:What are your threshold HR’s on the run (av hr for 10km run max effort) and your threshold HR on the bike (40km TT av hr max effort). Can’t really conclude much from those training runs unless we know how hard they are as a % of FT

    It could be the normal, but I think if we knew your threshold HR’s you might find you were just racing to your current abilities.

    Sorry I have no idea what my threshold HRs are, obviously a test or two is in order.

    If you have any guidelines or links to info on these test it would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks fluro (and others who have contributed) for your help.
    Paul F
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    Post by Paul F on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:40 am

    I'm right in the middle of Uni exams at the moment, but when I get some free time I'll post some threshold test you can do. You can find them over on traithlog.net in the forum there.

    Just quickly
    Run 10km all out max effort = av hr = FTHR
    Bike 40km TT all out max effort = av hr = FTHR

    The bike one a prefer is the 42minute test. 2 x20min TT max effort with a 2min RI inbtween. Total av hr for the 42min will equal yuor FTHR.

    From that point you can set up training zones, % of time in each zone each week etc. Then over time you'll develop some pacing strategies based on "RPE" and each zone and you can buld up some training plans and goals.

    If you do the tests first and post the results I'll be to set up your zones for you.

    Hope it helps
    fluro
    MickyC
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    Post by MickyC on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:44 am

    Thanks fluro, I look foward to learning more about it.

    cheers, now get back to studying... Very Happy
    Dan B
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    Post by Dan B on Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:21 am

    Have you done the tests yet Micky?
    Glenn C
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    Post by Glenn C on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:43 am

    Don't sweat it mate. On the run my HR is always up around 170+ for Oly distance (which is just below 10k threshold). And it should be slower than you fresh run pace. Although, as time goes on the 2 come closer together. I agree with CEM, you just need to race more. And Paul its just a reflection of your current ability by way of endurance to keep on truckin after already going for 2hrs+.

    In regards to Alex's post. HR is great when you have to meter out your effort, but don't let it be the only input for decision making. Perhaps one approach to get over this is to do a couple of sprint tris with some tape over the HR graphic for the whole race and check your data afterwards. There is alot to be said for bringing out the bastard in you. Thats what racing is for.

    For perpective my first race was Noosa I drank too much on the bike (750ml) and projectile vomited bright red Gatorade on the run. It was a case of better out than in! The key is to learn your lessons.
    MickyC
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    Post by MickyC on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:51 am

    Dan B wrote:Have you done the tests yet Micky?
    No mate not yet. I pretty much forgot about them as I haven't been training.
    I will have to have a good trawl through the triathlog forums to find some more info about the tests as suggested by Paul. If only the forums over there were searchable!
    Dan B
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    Post by Dan B on Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:48 am

    A couple of links for you and quotes"

    FTHR = Functional Threshold HR which is basically the max HR you can hold for an hour. This is a starting point to work out your "training zones" for different physiological systems. A 10km all out run or 60min bike TT should give you a starting point for these.

    Generally speaking you’ll find that your running HR will be close to 10bpm higher than your cycling HR at the same level of effort.
    Doing either a 1hr cycling TT or a 10k TT run will produce this 10bpm difference at the same level of effort. Effort wise a 10k run and a 40k TT on the bike, regardless of time, should feel quite similar.

    http://www.triathlog.net/forum_view_topic.asp?iCount=10&iQID=2547
    http://www.triathlog.net/forum_view_topic.asp?iCount=50&iQID=5605
    MickyC
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    Post by MickyC on Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:59 am

    Dan B wrote:A couple of links for you and quotes"

    FTHR = Functional Threshold HR which is basically the max HR you can hold for an hour. This is a starting point to work out your "training zones" for different physiological systems. A 10km all out run or 60min bike TT should give you a starting point for these.

    Generally speaking you’ll find that your running HR will be close to 10bpm higher than your cycling HR at the same level of effort.
    Doing either a 1hr cycling TT or a 10k TT run will produce this 10bpm difference at the same level of effort. Effort wise a 10k run and a 40k TT on the bike, regardless of time, should feel quite similar.

    http://www.triathlog.net/forum_view_topic.asp?iCount=10&iQID=2547
    http://www.triathlog.net/forum_view_topic.asp?iCount=50&iQID=5605
    Thanks Dan that's great

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