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    Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

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    Paul F
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    Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:01 am

    G'day everyone,

    It's time again for another 20km TT. Unfortunately I missed out on the last one as the fiance needed a little R & R and we took off to Margaret River for a few days.

    I'll be in like Flynn on this one.

    Not sure how I'll go, I'm right in the middle of a strength and endurance building phase, so lots of fatigue messing around with me physically and mentally at the moment. Some days I don't know if I'm Arthur or Martha as I build the k's back up.

    But anyway, looking forward to having another crack at riding under 29minute for 20km just so I can finally shut up one of my mates who is in the 28minute club. Razz

    Join in everyone, have some fun post your results and we'll chew them up and spit them back out with some good quality feedback. Laughing


    fluro
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:22 am

    Fluro’s 20km TT result
    Wandi course
    Time: 31min
    Distance: 20.5km
    Av sp : 39.6kph
    Position: 21/83

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42616080
    Summary
    This was a hard course today. I thought by looking at the map it was going to be a quick time with the long straights. Not to be, the straights were long but the road surface was appalling, really rough and difficult to get into any sort of rhythm. The course wasn’t flat, it was undulating and on a couple of climbs you need to get out of the saddle to crest the hills. It was a 2 x 10km circuit
    My time was a good 90seconds slower than my previous TT at Champion lakes and I thought it was just a case of being tired as I did a solid group ride the day before. However, looking at the results, I moved up 8 places and looking at the course record it is 6kph slower than Champion Lakes and I was only 0.9kph slower on this course. So overall I think I may have improved.
    I raced against a mate of mine who I beat by 1minute at Champion lakes and on this course today I beat him by 2.5minutes. So overall I consider this result to be an improvement.
    Analysis of garmin file
    My HR monitor was playing up for the first 5minutes, which didn’t really concern me as I do these rides on RPE.
    Right from the start I felyt okay, not great just okay. My cadence was normal but I did feel like I was pushing 1-2 gears easier than normal. I tried changing up a couples of times but I just couldn’t hold what I thought was my normal gear. Once my HR settled down I was consistently sitting around 166-168bpm (FTHR +1-2bpm), when I pushed up to 170bpm, I was really hurting. You can at the 15minute mark I was trying to get up over 170bpm which was what I was holding at my previous TT at Champion lakes. Today it wasn't meant to be and over the next 5-10min you can see my declining HR profile. I was tired, 700km on riding in the previous 2 weeks and a hard ride yesterday was showing through. All up my effort was closer to FTHR as opposed to FTHR +5-10bpm.


    In summary
    Pretty happy with my result, moved up 8 places and have narrowed the gap in in av sp between myself and first place.

    fluro20km TT Wandi
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:36 am

    Paul.. what was your average cadence for your first few tests? http://connect.garmin.com/activity/32653037
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:48 am

    G'day Matt,

    not sure as I didn't have my garmin 500 then.

    fluro
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:52 am

    I think you could spin more!
    look at my cadence.. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/37717597

    I ride over the top of my gears all of the time and the more the course undulates the more you should spin IMO..
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:10 am

    G'day Matt,

    Thanks for the tip. 99 cadence average is high. When I had my polar on I was usually around 92-93rpm on completely flat courses.

    Thinking of doing that in training to see how it feels. I think my cadence was a little lower this time round due to the longer climbs and short decents and dead pan road.

    fluro
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    Blair V

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Blair V on Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:55 pm

    Hi guys,

    I haven't been on here for a while but I did my first ever TT today and I thought I'd see what you guys think.

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/43427727

    I was pretty happy with my consistency completing each lap in about 2min (1.2km laps). Tried to keep my cadence around 90rpm and stayed down on the bars the whole time which is quite an achievement for me

    Edit: official time was 33:33
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:06 pm

    G'day Blair,

    I'll look over it tonight and get back to you tomorrow.

    Paul
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:06 pm

    Blair V wrote:Hi guys,

    I haven't been on here for a while but I did my first ever TT today and I thought I'd see what you guys think.

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/43427727

    I was pretty happy with my consistency completing each lap in about 2min (1.2km laps). Tried to keep my cadence around 90rpm and stayed down on the bars the whole time which is quite an achievement for me

    Edit: official time was 33:33

    G’day Blair,

    Did you do this test on a roadie or TT bike?
    Also next time you do the test could you add 5km lap split in, that way I can compare each 5km interval.
    The first thing I do is look to see what immediately jumps out at me.
    The av sp looks good, the speed profile is very consistent compare to the av hr line and your max speed at the start was only minor and probably didn’t have a negative impact on your overall performance. In other words it doesn’t look like you took it out too hard.
    I then look at your HR profile and can see that you have spent probably the first 10km above your av hr line and then the next 10km below your av hr line. This could be one of two things
    1. pace and execution
    2. Fitness
    So I look for other patterns to see which one it is. I don’t think it is fitness issue because your speed profile remains quite consistent from start to finish. I actually think it’s a pacing issue. The reason being almost all of us perform worst just after the ½ point right up to about ¾ of the way through a test. It’s the dead spot in performance. I think in your case that is where you slowed down the most.
    Your lowest HR in the whole test was at about 23-24min mark, ie 134bpm, and you do that, in fact we all do that, in anticipation for the final kick home.
    So I then look at that final kick, it’s a BIG one, and probably a little too big, in the sense that if you look from the 30min mark through to the end of the test, that is a steep increase in HR. That should happen riding a 20km TT at max effort, you probably should have that much left in the tank. So that confirms it’s not really a fitness issue but more of a execution and pacing issue. Lack of experience perhaps considering this is your first 20km TT.
    Now going off your max hr of 165bpm, and then I look at your av hr of 144bpm, I think your probably rode close to upper zone 4 to zone 5a (FTHR). I would place your FTHR closer to 150bpm and then you probably could train specific to execute this 20km TT at FTHR +5bpm = 155bpm, approximately.
    I would go back and have a look at a few past training session where you are really hitting it hard up a climb, does your HR sit around 150-155bpm?

    In summary look at riding like you did for the first 10km but then dig a little deeper in that second 10km and focus on keep the HR up and gradually climbing. I reckon you knock another 1-1.5 minutes off that time straight away. From 22min to 28min is your weak point, and the next time you do the TT just think about gritting your teeth a little more during that period of time. I also notice your speed drops during that period as well, so there is no decoupling occurring, both line (HR vs sp) are still parallel, therefore it’s got to be execution.
    Overall Blair, well done, you on the board, and you now have a target and a goal to aim for. With 36.3kpg av sp think about doing interval work aiming for 38-40kph, holding speed. Teach your body to hold that level of effort for longer and longer intervals each week. Aim for 4-6min intervals and do about 4-5 repeats and then add 1-2min of time to each intervals each week. Keep building up a tolerance for riding 40kph and in no time at all you’ll be targeting a sub 30min TT for 20km, would that be nice.
    Along the way ask lots of questions, plenty of good advice floating around here on this little forum.

    Hope it helps
    Fluro
    P.S Are you going to have another crack on the 5th September??
    P.S do you have trouble staying on the TT bars for long periods of time???

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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:41 pm

    G'day Blair,

    Something else that jumped out at me was your av hr of 144bpm. That's probably one of the lowest I have seen for that level of effort.

    Something to think about there a little more.

    What has been some of the highest HR's you have seen while on the bike or even the run? Just trying to build more of a profile.

    Paul

    fluro
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    Glenn C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Glenn C on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:00 pm

    Blair V wrote:Hi guys,

    I haven't been on here for a while but I did my first ever TT today and I thought I'd see what you guys think.

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/43427727

    I was pretty happy with my consistency completing each lap in about 2min (1.2km laps). Tried to keep my cadence around 90rpm and stayed down on the bars the whole time which is quite an achievement for me

    Edit: official time was 33:33

    Blair, Don't worry about your cadence by aiming for a particular one. The best cadence is so indivdual. Just go on what your legs tell you for a awhile and then take notice of that for future reference. Eg, I TT around 98-101 avg cadence. If its an hour I prefer the higher end if its long I prefer the lower end of that range. I have a mate that rips the cranks off it and he rides around 80-85 at his best. This is my key to climbing well too. I need to gear to be able to ride up near the same cadence...easier said than done. Bigger guys generally prefer lower cadence in my observation whilst stickmen prefer higher ones. Also short coursers generally have higher avgs and long coursers have lower avgs.

    I only use cadence now to tell me things post race or confirm a feeling my legs are giving me duringthe race. eg Oh this feels hard, oh I'm at 90 change up one or this feels hard oh I'm at 100 man up.
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:17 am

    Not a TT test.. but was a interesting training session this morning I did it with my mate who got 2nd in the state ITT last year he is an ex pro duathelte and race hawai IM as a PRO.. and absolute legend on the TT bike, I was in the box basically the whole way..

    We did this around Muzz this morning for those in Vegas will know where that is

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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:19 am

    even though its hard to zoom in enough basically its was 15on 3 off with the peak HR up to 175, my 20k ITT's average hr has been 178 ish so im not sure if I should be pushing a few % extra in these efforts or not ??
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    Blair V

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Blair V on Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:23 am

    Paul, thanks for the feedback. This is the first chance I've had to respond.

    I did the TT on my TT bike. First real test for it since I got it a couple of months ago - only one short duathlon before this. I have always had trouble staying on the bars for even short periods of time but it's something I'm working on.

    With the HR, I wasn't watching that at all - all I had displayed was time, speed, distance and cadence. But the 144bpm avg is about 80% for me. My max HR is about 180bpm. I did a climb of Mt Nebe the next day (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/43572717) and my HR peaked at around 150bpm while climbing. A couple of other rides with climbs that I've done recently my HR didn't even get that high.

    I haven't got another TT scheduled before Noosa. I did this one with the squad and generally try to do most squad sessions because a large part of training for me is the social aspect. I'm not as concerned about performance although any improvement is nice obviously.

    Glenn, while I was keeping an eye on my cadence I also find that I settle into about 85-90rpm naturally and this cadence just feels comfortable. There were a couple of occasions where it dropped a bit and I increased my effort to keep it up but most of the time I didn't have to worry about it.
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:33 pm

    Matt C wrote:Not a TT test.. but was a interesting training session this morning I did it with my mate who got 2nd in the state ITT last year he is an ex pro duathelte and race hawai IM as a PRO.. and absolute legend on the TT bike, I was in the box basically the whole way..

    We did this around Muzz this morning for those in Vegas will know where that is


    G'day Matt,

    Brutal session.

    Notice in the first 2 intervals you hit 175bpm but you can't do it in the 3rd and 4th interval. Also in the first 2 intervals you have a steady incline in your HR profile up to the about the 10min mark and then 'BANG' you pop. HR comes down with 5min still to go??? By the third interval there is an absence of a steady increase in HR, you going into preservation mode here, trying to protect yourself from being completely spat out the back in the final interval, or your training partner is just backing it off. In the final interval there is clear case of decoupling, rising HR and declining speed. In fact it's the only interval of all four that has a clear declining speed profile.

    How did you go? man tough session, wouldn't be something that you could back up on a weekly basis. This would be the sort of session that would sit well, right before a taper, or rest week. I'd be interested to hear how you pullled up afterwards, in particular how did your next key sessions go?? Out of curiosity why 4 x 15min intervals, it seems a little long for that sort of intensity? What was the target efforts?? I'd be curious to know where you have this session in terms of your ATP.


    In terms of execution, the third interval looks the best, nice and even in terms of your HR profile and your speed profile. Number 1 and 2 look like you were over commiting resulting in big drops in HR 2/3rds of the way into the intervals. The for interval shows your fatigue and would therefore give you a great benchmark on where you currently are.

    How did you execute these intervals?
    Were they in paceline or non drafting? The consistent dips in the speed profile shows you were maybe working a 1-2 min turn off the front as paceline, not sure. Have some thoughts on this too.
    Looks like a pretty flat course or some sort of loop?


    Well done in digging deep like that. Must of hurt.

    fluro
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:46 pm

    Blair V wrote:Paul, thanks for the feedback. This is the first chance I've had to respond.

    I did the TT on my TT bike. First real test for it since I got it a couple of months ago - only one short duathlon before this. I have always had trouble staying on the bars for even short periods of time but it's something I'm working on.

    With the HR, I wasn't watching that at all - all I had displayed was time, speed, distance and cadence. But the 144bpm avg is about 80% for me. My max HR is about 180bpm. I did a climb of Mt Nebe the next day (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/43572717) and my HR peaked at around 150bpm while climbing. A couple of other rides with climbs that I've done recently my HR didn't even get that high.

    I haven't got another TT scheduled before Noosa. I did this one with the squad and generally try to do most squad sessions because a large part of training for me is the social aspect. I'm not as concerned about performance although any improvement is nice obviously.

    Glenn, while I was keeping an eye on my cadence I also find that I settle into about 85-90rpm naturally and this cadence just feels comfortable. There were a couple of occasions where it dropped a bit and I increased my effort to keep it up but most of the time I didn't have to worry about it.

    G'day Blair,

    can you look through you logs and post a ride with the highest possible av hr. Looking at the ride above you rode for 2.5hrs @ 134bpm. In your test your 20km TT was 144bpm. Those numbers don't add up, in the sense that, IF, 144bpm was your true FTHR +5bpm then you shouldn't be able to ride at 134bpm for 2.5hrs. looking at your Mt Nebo ride you spend heaps of time above 144bpm. My guess is that your max effort 20km av hr will be a lot higher than 144bpm.

    Can you start doing some V02max intervals for example, 5-6 x 3min efforts, 2min RI as hard as you can go and record your av hr for each interval. I just think in your case lack of specificity at FTeffort is keeping your HR down and and a FT or V02max block of training will see you achieving some huge improvements. Basically you just need to build up a tolerance for FTefforts.

    In summary, some of your training numbers are falling outside of the norm in terms of the data I have collected over the past 5-6 years.

    Does that make sense?
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:12 am

    Paul F wrote:
    Matt C wrote:Not a TT test.. but was a interesting training session this morning I did it with my mate who got 2nd in the state ITT last year he is an ex pro duathelte and race hawai IM as a PRO.. and absolute legend on the TT bike, I was in the box basically the whole way..

    We did this around Muzz this morning for those in Vegas will know where that is


    G'day Matt,

    Brutal session.

    Notice in the first 2 intervals you hit 175bpm but you can't do it in the 3rd and 4th interval. Also in the first 2 intervals you have a steady incline in your HR profile up to the about the 10min mark and then 'BANG' you pop. HR comes down with 5min still to go??? By the third interval there is an absence of a steady increase in HR, you going into preservation mode here, trying to protect yourself from being completely spat out the back in the final interval, or your training partner is just backing it off. In the final interval there is clear case of decoupling, rising HR and declining speed. In fact it's the only interval of all four that has a clear declining speed profile.

    How did you go? man tough session, wouldn't be something that you could back up on a weekly basis. This would be the sort of session that would sit well, right before a taper, or rest week. I'd be interested to hear how you pullled up afterwards, in particular how did your next key sessions go?? Out of curiosity why 4 x 15min intervals, it seems a little long for that sort of intensity? What was the target efforts?? I'd be curious to know where you have this session in terms of your ATP.


    In terms of execution, the third interval looks the best, nice and even in terms of your HR profile and your speed profile. Number 1 and 2 look like you were over commiting resulting in big drops in HR 2/3rds of the way into the intervals. The for interval shows your fatigue and would therefore give you a great benchmark on where you currently are.

    How did you execute these intervals?
    Were they in paceline or non drafting? The consistent dips in the speed profile shows you were maybe working a 1-2 min turn off the front as paceline, not sure. Have some thoughts on this too.
    Looks like a pretty flat course or some sort of loop?


    Well done in digging deep like that. Must of hurt.

    fluro

    I thought you would like that session thats why I posted it Laughing

    Im joining in with my mate who is trying to win the ITT states (40k) on the 5th of september. so your absolutley correct is a session just before taper period
    next week is 5x10mins 2min recovery
    final taper week 6x5mins 1min recovery


    we were riding around a 1.2k loop (muzz crit track) and it was very windy hence the speed variations. our rule was drafting at 3m's ish and I would set the pace for one lap and Dave would set the pace for two laps as he is stronger than me

    backing up is generally no problem, we both did this session with a goal race on sunday being the State Road race champs... legs are good lucky i dont do swim or run at the moment Laughing



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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:19 am

    G'day Matt,

    Good timing in the program to be reaching 'breaking point' before a session finishes. Carmichael would use this strategy with Lance so as to locate his limits within his key sessions, that would then be used to formulate the next key session with the purpose of trying to extend that limit out a little further. This sort of training is probably a good combination of mental and physical overload, not easy, and you can hold it together for about 5-6 back to back weeks before you walk straight into the brick wall known as the plateau.

    Are you doing the TT on the 5th?

    fluro

    keep it up Matt, and keep posting this sort of stuff, it's great seeing what your guys are doing.
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:26 am

    yeah ill keep posting these sessions, and the race result on the 5th.. not sure how ill go will assume ill float around the 5-10th ish mark..

    or I jsut got offered a spot to race tour de murray, will need time off work though, will be one or the other!
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    Paul F
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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Paul F on Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:37 am

    If I can get a bit more relief teaching between now and December, I might head over and do the Tour of Bright, now that I'm JUST a cyclist Laughing I'm still yet to do a road race, LOL. But I am enjoying training with the roadies now and ALL ofd their antics. It's almost feel like a cult and trying to be accepted as a cyclist is tough LOL.

    I was slammed the other day for not having my tyre stickers in line with my inner tube valve, WTF is that all about LOL

    Would you be keen on the Tour of bright?? There is about 4 of us at this stage doing it, myself, Mick B, harris1 and Matt T.

    fluro
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:42 am

    Back on this morning... 10 on 2 off x 6 garmin stuffed up between set 1 and 2 so it did not recored the 2min off.. thing had to be reset so averages are a little stuffed there Sad however the rest look good.

    felt great today, really working on keeping good form despite the pain! we rolled 2laps on 2laps off with a 3-5m draft and there was no win thankfully today. last set was 1on 1 off

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/45121862


    Last edited by Matt C on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:02 am

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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:02 am

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    Dave Tyno

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Dave Tyno on Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:21 am

    I like the lap on the Garmin view where you appear to cut bush Smile
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    Matt C

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    Re: Challenge session 3: 20km TT 1st August 2010

    Post by Matt C on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:43 pm

    thats thanks to garmin Gayness

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