Long run thoughts

there is alot of stuff here which is way too indepth and over analysed for my liking. for what it is worth my longest ever training run is 2:15. never ever gone over that. moderate distances after biking will get you quicker.

in my experience the kms dont matter, in fact i have only ever ended up injured by the kms. for im it is about time and learning to run fatigued. you get to an im mara at 6 hours plus, your tired and now you have to run. the person who can run decently when their legs feel like utter shit will always outdo someone who hasnt trained for this.

so in saying this we need to run tired as much as possible, without risking injury. 4 hour runs = injury unless you have an extensive running history. what alex eludes to above, my focus was exactly this. i always ran 10km slightly above im pace off a 200 bike, and followed the next day with 120km then 20ish at im pace. the 20km were often really tough, but the form these end up being performed at was remarkably similar to the way i ran the im mara, because the workout were as specific to the objective as i could make them. i am not a good runner by any means but i was able to run faster than 95% because i knew what it felt like.

single sport analysis is just silly

Damn the 4hour run looks even more appealing after reading your weekend training schedule.

I agree totally with you though, it's all about meeting the demands of the event. Address that consistently in training and you'll improve your chances of executing a good IM race.

fluro

Andrew, I am always amazed at your talent both physically and mentally to withstand an enormous amount of volume. Am I to take it you are looking at coming back to tris or are you just hanging out here? As we discussed sometime ago mountain biking is on the cards a bit more for me now that Hawaii is done. I would hate to see what type of cyclist you have turned into after a year of MTBing.

I'd also be curious to know how you structure the rest of your training week around that weekend monster fest

fluro

yeah glenn i am back giving ironman a go next year. short retirement. im not sure what it is, there is not much i like about them, alot of self obsessed people, i really hate the commercialness?? of it all and dont partucularly like swimming either. procrastinating going right now. but one day i just decided i needed to give it another go.

i now do all my during the week training on a mtb and at is much more fun and safe. the events are ripping good fun but the desire for me wasnt quite what it used to be. i am planning for a few mtb marathons in my build up, but my job requires alot of weekend work so will have to see how that pans out.

i would love to know how hawaii went for you glenn, sorry for the hijack maybe a new post or a pm if you want.

Paul F wrote:I'd also be curious to know how you structure the rest of your training week around that weekend monster fest

fluro

i dont see that training as too severe, particularly for what we are training for. i am just getting back now, but still do the same rides each weekend, and am slowly building up the running. apart from the last 6 weeks i hadnt ran since hawaii 08.

all weekend training is done before lunch time each day to give time for the missus and other things that need doing.

for the rest of the week, monday and friday were rest days, swim only. wednesday had the long run and easy bike, tuesday and thursday was swim/run brick then 3 hr bike in the arvo. it changed all the time for various reasons but this was the basis. i also swam before the sunday session as i had the keys to my local pool which was handy.

Just ran 90 minutes. It was hard. It is a long way back. Of note, it was 130 TSS on WKO+. Scores of 250+(will have to double check) are said to have a 48 hour recovery period associated with them. A 4 hour run would have a 300+ TSS which would need 3 days to get over. This really does have a direct influence on the 'basic week' if you do it a few times.

I've only just starting using WKO for recording run sessions, so still getting used to how it 'measures' TSS (and other metrics) in a running context, and how that compares to riding.

Keep in mind that running is a lot harder on the body, and takes longer to recover than riding. If you scored 130 TSS for a 90min run...where 100 for a 60min is equivalent to a race/TT...you must have been running very hard and/or underestimated your running FTP.??

WKO calculates graded pace using the altimeter to then assign rTSS. I have my threshold pace in WKO as 4:30min/km as I would be lucky to run any faster than a 45 min 10km right now. I ran 17.5km in 1:32 which is 5:15 pace. Any form of incline quickly throws the graded pace well under actual and most runs I do around the 5-5:15 pace are graded to 4:40ish. As youcan see, that will get an IF of well over 0.9.

Alex R wrote:Just ran 90 minutes. It was hard. It is a long way back. Of note, it was 130 TSS on WKO+. Scores of 250+(will have to double check) are said to have a 48 hour recovery period associated with them. A 4 hour run would have a 300+ TSS which would need 3 days to get over. This really does have a direct influence on the 'basic week' if you do it a few times.

G'day Alex,

This is exactly why I intend on running this way. I figured it doesn't matter if I run 40min or 2hr my feet hurt and I need 3-4 days to rest my feet not my muscles.

If I follow a traditional IM run program and run around 4-5 days PW I'm just beating up my feet too much. If I add intensity into the equation this also beats me feet up to much.

The plan for me (N=1) is to build mega runs with long reocveries. This idea being get my muscles and feet used to running long and then recover for 3-4 days afterwards.
I'll be working on a 2 week cycle. Week 1 only 2 runs and week 2 there'll be 3 runs. Lot's of rest between runs in order to recover the feet and the muscles.

So instead of beating up my feet 4-5 times PW I'm just going to suck it up and deal with it twice maybe 3 times PW, but I still need the overload specific to meet the demands of the event, hence much longer runs.

I don't think I get to 4 hour runs but definitely 3.5 is the target.

I'm judging my stress levels by the level of muscle fatigue that comes on in the last 10-15% of the run, which feels exactly like IM fatigue and how sore I am over the next 2 days. I don't run again until that muscle stiffness has completely disappeared for at least a full day.

So I ran 1:45 yesterday over a rolling course, could feel the muscle soreness come on at about the 1.5hr mark, it was especially noticeable on the downhills. So I figured 15 minutes more would be enough.

Next week I hope to aim for 2hrs, on the condition that I don't start to feel the muscle soreness until at least the 1:45 mark. If it comes on early I hold off running up to 2hr until I feel (RPE indicator) I ready to handle running 2hrs.

I'm really relying on RPE as opposed to following a set program to guide me through my IM build up this time around, consequently, I have ditched the HR monitor, foot pod in an attempt to "heighten" my accute awareness of my RPE operates.

I felt like I could build up from running 40min up to 1.5hrs quite quickly, as to why I'm not sure, but moving beyond that is proving a little harder.

Maybe you guys have some tips you could share.



fluro

I'm currently increasing my long run by around 15 minutes a week.
My pace is a lot slower than you guys though. (usually 6:00 min/Km)
Went from 1:30 to 1:50 last week.
Will be doing 2:00 this Sunday.
Plan to do 2:15 the week after, then back off a bit before 25k race on Dec 13th.

If my IM run goal will be around 5 hours, I'll be trying to build up to a 4 hour training run.

Dave Tyno wrote:I'm currently increasing my long run by around 15 minutes a week.
My pace is a lot slower than you guys though. (usually 6:00 min/Km)
Went from 1:30 to 1:50 last week.
Will be doing 2:00 this Sunday.
Plan to do 2:15 the week after, then back off a bit before 25k race on Dec 13th.

If my IM run goal will be around 5 hours, I'll be trying to build up to a 4 hour training run.

I think that if you're heading into new territory in terms of length of long run, 15min per week increase is too much / too rapid.

I'd suggest 10mins increase every second week. Hasten slowly.

Campbell M wrote:
I'd suggest 10mins increase every second week. Hasten slowly.

I figured 15 min a week WAS hastening slowly.
If I do 10 min every other week, that'll give me, at best, 1 x 3.5 hour long run before Port.
I don't know if I'd be comfortable only doing that much?

Mate,
For my first IM longest run was 2.5hrs
Subsequent Ironmans longest run 2hrs
I did a 5hr run at 6ft Track on 2hr long run training plus A LOT of bike riding.
You don't need to run that far. In fact if you are on the wrong side of 75-80kg you really shouldn't run that far.

I'm currently increasing my long run by around 15 minutes a week.
My pace is a lot slower than you guys though. (usually 6:00 min/Km)
Went from 1:30 to 1:50 last week.
Will be doing 2:00 this Sunday.
Plan to do 2:15 the week after, then back off a bit before 25k race on Dec 13th.

If my IM run goal will be around 5 hours, I'll be trying to build up to a 4 hour training run.

G’day Dave,
I would be keeping your long run where it is for now. With your experience you need to feel clear drops in RPE before you extend. Your limiters are different to mine, so your focus should be on developing the ability to make the long run feel easier and easier before you progress to longer and longer runs. Unlike myself my goal is to reach fatigue points within the run, however, I don’t think you have the experience yet to accurately assess those points within a run. That will come with time.


You’re at greater risk of injury then me mainly due to inexperience, therefore, this is your primary limiter in regards to being able to handle a long run.


I would also consider looking at improving your body composition, this is what I’m working on right now. I’m 6” 1’ and was 82kg a few weeks ago but I’m back down to 78-79kg again, this will have big impact on my ability to handle longer sessions without breaking down. My diet recently have moved to eating as much green as I can, green salads, greens vegetables, etc


My suggestion would be to keep your long run at 1:50 for at least another 3-4 weeks. Monitor your recovery between runs and the goal should be to go from having that run feel reasonably challenging to feeling really easy. This may take 2-3 weeks or it could take 5-6 weeks, be patient.

In the meantime you could think about extending a second run from 1hr up to 1:10-1:15 to help address your limiters, i.e inexperience and body composition. Use the 2nd run to insert some slightly faster paced efforts, e.g 5:40-5:50min/k towards the end of that run.
Build some other short runs in there as well (30-40minutes), and focus on holding perfect running form and finish those runs without feeling. This will address your economy and efficiency which is very important for developing the ability to run long without breaking down, form wise.


Finally, you might want to consider the 10minute run to 1minute walk protocol. Mick and I have had particularly good success following this run protocol on all out runs. It assists with your recovery and it allows you to safely build up your mileage without breaking down. It’s also very IM specific with the aid stations and fueling strategies for an IM run. Mick started up a good thread on triathlog about it. Considering you goals this would suit you and directly address your limiters.

fluro

P.S I think a high frequency run program with moderate runs will address YOUR limiters better then longer run with less frequency.

I always put newbies on a high frequency run programs first and in every case they have had excellent results in terms of improving your Aet paces. This is a result of big improvement in economy and efficiency. This is the frist step before going long.

Campbell M wrote:I think that if you're heading into new territory in terms of length of long run, 15min per week increase is too much / too rapid.

I'd suggest 10mins increase every second week. Hasten slowly.

What Cam said, Really mate if you get hurt there is no coming back before the race. The bigest problem for most newcomers, especially self coached would be getting there at all or getting there without injury. The mind is willing but it takes years for the body to learn to be able to absorb higher volumes. (unless you are Andrew...he is an exception, but even he would tell you running doesn't work like that)

I usually work on 2-3weeks before increases or that you can complete the current distance with less than a 10sec/k slow down throughout the long run on the same HR as at the start. Friel talks about using 5% decoupling protocol

Campbell M wrote: If you scored 130 TSS for a 90min run...where 100 for a 60min is equivalent to a race/TT...you must have been running very hard and/or underestimated your running FTP.??

Hey CEM, I got an answer as to why this is from the guy who inventted rTSS.

it's a component of the determination to account for the loss of economy with time/distance.

So, yes, for a one hour effort at FTPace, the TSS should be 111.

This also then goes on that the next hour if run at the same pace will be higher than 111 as the economy with time and distance will continue to degrade.

Rad.

Campbell M wrote:f you're heading into new territory in terms of length of long run, 15min per week increase is too much / too rapid.

I'd suggest 10mins increase every second week. Hasten slowly.

Sounds good to me. Mark Allen had a similar approach:

-For his long runs he would begin at 1 hour and then increase in stepped fashion by 10 minutes every second week, dropping back to the duration of the run two weeks earlier in the intervening week. Thus, the duration of the first seven consecutive long runs would be 60, 70, 60, 80, 70, 90, 80 minutes. After 15 weeks, this would increase to the 150-minute long runs that Allen maintained during the Speed-Work and Push Phases.

I ran 2 hours today. Was a long road back. Started September 1 with 20 minutes.