Stand alone run times versus triathlon run times

Interested to hear from the experts what should the difference be between the 2 over OD, HIM & IM? The longer the distance the more variation there seems to be between the 2 for example there are guys I know who can smash me over a stand alone 10K or HM but not over an IM marathon. So the follow up question is what can we do to reduce the difference as much as possible?

I haven't done an OD for ages but I'm guessing maybe 2 minutes there but my HM PB is 1:46 and HIM 1:51 although it was a few months later so I was maybe a little fitter. Mara PB 3:49 and IM mara PB 4:25.

If you train specifically for an Ironman Marathon, run a Marathon and run an Ironman marathon, the difference will likely be fairly small. Take my specific example where I ran a 3:38 stand alone follwed by a 3:46 IM version. To take it a step further there are some very hand Marathon runners who have waaaaaay under 3 hours as their pb stand alone but have late 3 to 4+ when they attempt Ironman.

This come back to my belief that people really need to stop comparing them selves to runners, swimmers and cyclists and realise that they are different sports. Sure there are many similarities but there are different requirements especially when you start talking about IM.

Alex R wrote:

This come back to my belief that people really need to stop comparing them selves to runners, swimmers and cyclists and realise that they are different sports. Sure there are many similarities but there are different requirements especially when you start talking about IM.

This is a very good point and something I'm working on at the moment.

The majority of IM training principles are based around the methodologies that have been developed with swimmers, cyclists and marathoners. These methodologies are heavily backed by science and ingrained into our way of thinking. However, for IM training they are failing us, I believe.

There are a handful of coaches that are breaking down those training principles by directly addressing the demands of an IM event, with much resistance on internet forums. However, the results, actual field tests, show there are better ways to train for an IM then by just following the long held traditions of swimming, cycling and marathon training principles.

Those 'better ways' go against the norm, and over time with more forward thinking coaches out there you are going to see things change so that training principles become specific for IM events.

fluro
P.S I have my own ideas I have been researching and I have been slowly leaking out to the general public, but boy, the resistance is strong. Maybe I could off load some of those ideas here?

maybe I should start a new post, is this too off topic? My apologies if so


G'day Andrew,


I don't think we should compare difference, what we should focus on is becoming specialists in the event we train for. That should then see sub optimal performance accross other disciplines as a way of confirming that you are getting it right at the distance you are targeting.

For example, when your IM run fit, your 10km open run pace should be crap. But, people, mix it up too much, thus becoming okay across all distances without getting really good at one particular distance.

I asked my coach if I wanted to run a 3.30 IM marathon, what times would I need to do in other distances and this is what he gave me

5km - 21.32

10km - 44.45

21km - 1.39.34

21km - 1.42.26 Half Ironman

I don't think the answer is as simple as saying you should have "x" difference between stand alone and triathlon run times.

Specifically, the combination of your biking ability and how close you ride to that ability in a triathlon will have huge effect on your triathlon run time.

Remember, that your triathlon result is combination of swim and bike and run, which is somewhat different to swim + bike + run. Triathlon is one sport, not three, so it's rather academic to talk about the difference in run times.

I'd a faster combined time any day than just saying I did "x" (fast) time in a single leg...

I have found there is probably around <1 min diff bewteen my current 10k run and 10k off the bike time.

Last year I ran 34 fresh on a tough day on tired legs and ran 34 off the bike at Canberra reasonably comfy.

As we get longer the bigger the gap gets. I run around 1.21 off the bike in HIM at the moment, but think my fresh 1/2 time would be bewteen 70-75mins(both on tri training). I reckon my open mara time might be around 2.40-2.45 on IM run training compared to a 3.09 off the bike. The bike really affected my run in this race and realistically I should have been a low 3hrs. In training my times have indicated a low 3 hour mara at my aerobic pace. THIS is what I think the best indicator of IM mara potential is. IMO your Z2 long run pace is very similar to IM mara pace but with a higher HR on the day (usually Z3). All depending on your bike strength and execution of course .

Obviously these time comparisons would change greatly if one were to get specific with their run training.

I could be wrong Julie, but I would have thought something more like a 1.30 1/2 would have you closer to 3.30 depending on bike strength. Feel free to prove me wrong

Julie H wrote:I asked my coach if I wanted to run a 3.30 IM marathon, what times would I need to do in other distances and this is what he gave me

5km - 21.32

10km - 44.45

21km - 1.39.34

21km - 1.42.26 Half Ironman

I reckon those first 3 are too soft for the desired IM split. I am only 1-2mins faster than each of those first 3 splits and only have a 1.46 flat off the bike, but there is no way that has been equivalent to a 3:30 IM fitness (top 20% of IM field). He's pinched those straight out of a conversion chart for running. I reckon you'd want at least a sub 1:38 off the bike in a Half or better to start thinking 3:30 in real terms.

The other thing, are those splits just out of your reach at the moment? Maybe he just made them up to get a few extra percent out of you.

I don't think they are out of my reach. Those are goals I am aiming to achieve by July next year (5km, 10km and 1/2) with the 3.30 IM Marathon time for Dec 2010.

I really think you need a 1.30 off the bike to be near a 3.30 IM mara. I agree with Mick B the specifics of times using seconds suggests to me its from running calculator which doesn't work so well for IM/HIM. You would need to be near a 40 preferrably less for 10k off the bike to pull a 1.30 off the bike in a HIM.